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Mike Miller

Mike Miller has been msnbc.com's college basketball editor since 2003. It's a position he relishes; no wonder considering he transferred to Kansas to watch Paul Pierce play. Most of his favorite sports memories involve college hoops, usually during March, when every waking moment is spent thinking about March Madness.



The greatest college basketball players

Posted: Saturday, February 16, 2008 5:53 PM
Filed Under: ,

This one’s the ideal post for arguing among hoops fans. Except when you get to the top – then there’s little room for debate.

Just like in football, ESPN is counting down the 25 greatest players in college basketball history. (Click here for videos.) And it’s a loaded list.

Counting down from 25, they’ve hit George Mikan (DePaul), David Robinson (Navy), Calvin Murphy (Niagara), Austin Carr (Notre Dame) and Tim Duncan (Wake Forest). The top 20 starts with Bob Kurland (Oklahoma A&M, now State) Elgin Baylor (Seattle U), Ralph Sampson (Virginia), Tom Gola (La Salle) and Patrick Ewing (Georgetown).

Nice start. All of those players except Murphy were unanimous choices for the All-America team, while some – Mikan, Sampson – were unanimous choices for three seasons. Some might disagree with the order (I think Kurland’s too high), but they’re all worthy.

The fun part about these lists is everyone has their version.

A few seasons ago, SI.com had nearly 30 writers write essays on their picks for the greatest college player of all time. Check out each one when you have time. They’re thoughtful, impassioned pieces that sum up why the college game is so dammed great.

Here’s another list for the top 100 players, but it only has arguments made for the top 20. The rest is a list.

Also worth reading are these two items from ESPN on their “Mount Rushmore” of college hoops. (Click here for the second version.) Paired with those are: the most dominant individual college seasons, and the best Big Dance performances.

So who will be in the top 15 of ESPN’s list? Here’s how I’d rank ‘em.

(Note: The list likely won’t include Ralph Beard, a three-time All-American at Kentucky. His role in a point-shaving scandal is a no-no for something like this. After all, they left O.J. off the football list.)

15. Scott May, Indiana. If not for a broken arm in 1975, May would’ve had two NCAA titles to his résumé, instead of only having that perfect 1976 season.

14. Elvin Hayes, Houston. Another dominator down low, Hayes’ 1968 season – 36.8 ppg, 18.9 rebounds – is impressive. More so? That win against Lew Alcindor and UCLA, one of the few times Alcindor’s team ever stumbled.

13. Jerry Lucas, Ohio State. Lucas never ended a season without playing in an NCAA title game. Also a unanimous three-time All-American, who averaged 24.3 ppg and 17.2 rpg for his career.

12. Michael Jordan, North Carolina. His NBA career surely influences this pick, but MJ also dominated during his junior season, was a two-time unanimous All-American and there’s that famous shot as a freshman.

11. Magic Johnson, Michigan State. Left after just two seasons, but was arguably the best college point guard we’ve ever seen.

10. Wilt Chamberlain, Kansas. The Stilt could probably be higher – he was a two-time All-American and averaged 29.9 ppg and 18.3 rebounds in two seasons – but I wish he would’ve stuck around longer.

9. Christian Laettner, Duke. Hate him or love him, there’s not denying Laettner as one of the game’s greatest players. He played in four Final Fours, won two of ‘em and was the player behind one of the sport’s greatest upsets (UNLV in ’91) and its greatest game (Kentucky in ’92).

8. Larry Bird, Indiana State. I wish he and Bob Knight could’ve made it work. But I’ll take the three brilliant years as a Sycamore, where he willed a true mid-major to the title game and snagged Player of the Year – over Magic – in the process.

7. Danny Manning, Kansas. My pick – over Laettner – for the best player in the modern era. Manning, a unanimous All-American in ’87 and ’88, could score, rebound, defend … you get the idea. Danny and the Miracles had no business beating Oklahoma for the 1988 title.

6. Bill Russell, San Francisco. Centers dominated college hoops during the 40s and 50s, and Russell was the best of the lot. His Dons rarely lost (71-8 in three seasons, 57-1 in the final two) and he averaged nearly as many rebounds (20.3) as points (20.7) for his career.

5. Pete Maravich, LSU. The game’s greatest scorer. He had a permanent green light and he used it, averaging 44.4 ppg for his career. Put it this way: He has 400 more career points than the guy in 2nd place, Freeman Williams, who went for more than 30 a game himself.

4. Oscar Robertson, Cincinnati. Put simply, the game’s best all-around player. The Big O is one of two players to have a Final Four triple-double, but somehow never won a title himself.

3. Bill Walton, UCLA. Will always be the second-best center in UCLA history, but that’s no dig. Walton’s Bruins once won 88 straight games, he once made 21-of-22 field-goal attempts in the 1973 Final Four and was an paralleled unparalleled passer out of the low post. Why isn’t he No. 2? Because he lost to my guy at No. 2.

No. 2 David Thompson, N.C. State. Thompson’s mystique (he snagged a quarter off the top backboard!) and on-court ability are enough to cement his place in the game’s lore, but when the 1974 Wolfpack team beat UCLA – after beating Maryland in the ACC Tournament – it vaulted him into legendary status.

No. 1 Lew Alcindor, UCLA. The perfect college player. He had an unstoppable shot, was an underrated defender and the greatest winner we’ve seen in the college game. UCLA was 88-2 in his three seasons, won three NCAA titles and – because of Alcindor – set the standard for all college dynasties.

There's my list. What's yours?

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Comments

Danny Manning?  You don't get to adopt Danny Manning because of a two year stint in Kansas, you transplant.  

Also - as for modern players - I like a non-hot tubbing Larry Johnson to get some mention.  His Vegas numbers (21-11) are comparable to Manning's career (20-8) and Jr.-Sr. stretch (24-9).
Danny Manning VERY justified.

Larry Johnson's numbers.  LOL.  Take a look at the competition in the joke conference UNLV was in in the 90s.  Danny Manning played in a tough Big 8 conference.  
If he didn't run into problems with TWO bum knees, Manning would be among the top NBA players of all time. He belongs on this list, no doubt.
What about Dan Issel?
Totally agree with Alcindor. And, I do believe the "freshman" rule was in place at that time. Freshman were restricted from playing.  Otherwise, he would been on a team could have won four straight with him at center.
That freshman team beat the #1 pre-season ranked UCLA Varsity  team which went on to win another National Championship that year.
No Jerry West? He has to be in the top ten! Even Adolph Rupp called him the best college player he had ever seen.
Anyone who does not have Oscar as #2 behind Lew never saw the Big O play as a collegian.
dan issel has got to be in the top ten...much better than laettner or manning...jerry west, rick barry, and darrell griffith were dominant players...
Oscar
How bout Len Bias who was said to be the most complete forward to play. He was also compared to the likes of Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson!
pistol pete the greatest hands down
I have watched college basketball for some time and I have to agree with Eli. Larry Johnson is one of the best I have seen. The whole UNLV team was one of the best I have seen despite a not-so competitive conference. Even though Duke pulled an incredible upset against them it still doesn't justify a 103-73 whoopin UNLV gave them the year before. Larry Johnson was on that team against Laettner and Hurley. And Laettner is 9th on the list. Johnson was a freak of nature on the basketball court and deserves some recognition.
Here are the latest from ESPN:
#15)Magic Johnson
#14)Elvin Hayes
#13)Michael Jordan
#12) Christian Laettner
#11)Jerry Lucas
#10)Wilt Chamberlain
#9)Larry Bird.  
It's almost scary how close you are...you either know college basketball or ESPN very well.  That said, there's no way Scott May cracks the top ten, so who do you like?  Bill Bradley has to appear on this list somewhere, right?
Bradley seems likely. He was a unanimous two-time All-American who averaged 30.2 ppg for his career and holds the Final Four scoring record with 58 points against Wichita State. Guys like Sean Elliott, Artis Gilmore, Rick Mount, Shaq, Waymon Tisdale and Jerry West or even Jay Williams have strong cases, though. We'll likely find out in the next few days, as there should be little debate as to who's in the top 5.
I TOTALLY agree w/ David Thompson as #2. No ONE had as much of an inpact, esp. in an era of no three-pointers, no freshmen on varsity, and no dunk.
Updating on harrys list

#8 David Thompson
#7 Bill Bradley
Manning will not make the list.  There are six spots left:

Lew Alcindor, Bill Walton, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, and Pete Maravich are shoo-ins.

The final spot will likely go to Jerry West over Manning.
Once they got to the obvious super-duper allstars (Ewing, Magic, Big E, MJ, Jerry Lucas, Wilt, etc), (Laettner too high BTW), it was obvious that there would be no Manning or May.  (The top 10 were pretty much a guarantee, just a question of order.)  I'd dump Robinson & Duncan for Manning & May in a heartbeat.  I'd take Olajuwon over both the Admiral and Timmy too.

If Jay Williams has a good argument, what about the current Knicks' coach?  Much-maligned for other things now, he was as good a college point guard as there's been.  Phil Ford too.  Both easily better than Duke's Williams.  But speaking of Duke guys, where's Grant Hill?  And speaking of guys who beat Walton, what about Adrian Dantley (when he was a freshman) (consensus 1st-team 2 yrs, player of the yr the 2nd, averaged 28.6 then 30.4 pts per game and led the 1976 Olympic gold-medal team in scoring)?  How about LSU's 2nd best player ever, Bop Pettit?  And (I didn't look, but is this list limited to Division I players?  Black Jesus anyone?  (Earl the Pearl, Division II Winston-Salem State, 41.5 pts/game as a senior.)

There's a lot of guys you can argue for outside the top 15 or so which is why 25 is just too difficult to manage.  Maybe mentioning the best players ever from a few schools (with NBA draft placement in parens) would help illustrate just how utterly impossible this is: Lousiville - Unseld (#2, Big E #1), Holy Cross - Cousy (#3) (unless, of course, you think Tom Heinsohn was Holy Cross' best player, #1 in territorial draft '56, Southern Illinois - Walt Frazier (#5), Miami - Rick Barry (#2, 37 pts/game as a sr., 29.8 career [for reference & comparison here, career averages, Maravich was, of course 44.6, Austin Carr 34.6, Oscar 33.9, Calvin Murphy 33.1, Elgin 31.3, Elvin 31.0, Bird 30.3, Bradley 30.2, Wilt 29.9), St. Bonaventure - Bob Lanier (#1) Fla. St. - Dave Cowens (#4, after Lanier, Rudy T, Pistol Pete, 1970 draft), Massachusetts - Dr. J (#12! after averaging 26 pts & 20 rebounds in 2 seasons) (sorry, Marcus Camby), Minnesota - McHale (#3), Syracuse - Dave Bing #2 '66, 28.4 pts/game, NBA Rookie of the Yr '66-'67 (sorry Carmelo), American - Kermit Washington (very sorry Rudy T) was the last guy to average 20/20.  And, hey, Frank Selvy for Furman averaged 29.5 as a jr & 41.7 as a sr, scoring 100 pts against a non-Division I opponent.  That's pretty damn good.

Others: Doug Collins-#1 29.1 pts/game career, Ernie D.-#3, Marvin Barnes-#2 after Walton; speaking of guys who beat Walton, Tom Burleson-#3 after Walton & Barnes, & this '74 class was something: Shumate 4th, Bobby Jones 5th, Scott Wedman 6th, Tom Henderson 7th, Campy Russell 8th, Tom McMillen 9th (would've been higher but was going to Oxford for 2 yrs on a Rhodes Scholarship), Mike Sojourner, Jamaal Wilkes, Brian Winters, Len Elmore, Maurice Lucas; just this draft alone, college-career-only-right?, shows how fierce the competition would be for 26-50 or 100.  Darrell Griffith (Lousiville's 2nd best player ever, #2 in '80), Mark Aguirre #1 '81 before Isiah & Buck Williams, Terry Cummings #2 '82 after Worthy....... Chris Mullin, Dominique Wilkins, Lennie Wilkens, Charles Barkley, Cazzie Russell, Fred Hetzel, Gail Goodrich......... UNLV's Grandmama was better than Laettner.

The thing I find most interesting though is that, of the great college basketball dynasties of the last 50 or so years (leaving aside UCLA which will have 2 of the top 5) - Kansas, Kentucky, Indiana, North Carolina, and Duke (in no particular order btw - want to start another discussion?) is that there's one Kansas guy (Wilt), no Kentucky, no Indiana, one Carolina & one Duke.  My point is not that these programs managed to emphasize team over individual play, but that maybe there's something a bit wrong with the list: Kentucky has the following 2- or 3-time All-America selections - Ralph Beard, Alex Groza, Cliff Hagan, Frank Ramsey, Cotton Nash, Louie Dampier, Dan Issel, Kevin Grevy, Goose Givens, Rick Robey, Kyle Macy, Sky Walker, & Tayshaun Prince.  None of those guys make it?

Kansas - we've already mentioned Manning but Clyde Lovelette was a 3-time All-America, Most Outstanding Player for the NCAA Final Four National Champion '52 team, led the conference in scoring 3 yrs in a row, led the nation in scoring that 3rd year (28.4), won a gold medal for the '52 Olympic team which he led in scoring, played with Dean Smith, & went on to a very respectable NBA career of 17 pts, 9 rebounds, & 3 titles.  Wilt was the best Kansas player ever (you may have seen elsewhere that Alcindor/Jabbar's freshman team beat the returning/repeating national champions in an intra-squad game & I guess Walton's freshman team did the same thing, but in our endless pursuit of trivia, I thought I'd mention that Wilt's freshman team played the Kansas varsity that was expected to win the conference (but didn't) & Wilt merely went for 52, 29 & 4 blocks) but...... nobody else???

Carolina guys: Lenny Rosenbluth, Bob McAdoo, Billy Cunningham, Bobby Jones, Phil Ford, Walter Davis, Worthy, Perkins, Brad Daugherty, Antawn Jamison (he's on UNC's official 1st-team ever), Vince Carter, Sean May. *Only* Jordan?

Duke: *Only* Laettner?  I mentioned Grant Hill, but Dick Groat*, Art Heyman*, Jeff Mullins, Jim Spanarkel, Mike Gminski, Gene Banks, Johnny Dawkins*, Danny Ferry*, Elton Brand*, Shane Battier*, Jay Williams*, JJ Redick* ----> * = National Player of the Year.  

And, once I've mentioned Redick, who I don't think can play in the NBA unless he become Kyle Korver, I've got to mention to Indiana guys who are not quite as obvious as May & Isiah, like Kent Bentson (#1 pick), Steve Alford - Redick in a different uniform,

Finally, as a die-hard Maryland fan, I have to mention that there's one guy who never got a chance to measure his skills at the next level: Coach K always says Len Bias was the best individual player he's ever coached against other than Jordan.  And I'm not necessarily convinced that Lenny was even the best Maryland player ever.  That was John Lucas (#1 '76) who was the 2nd or 3rd best player in the country in '73-'74, '74-'75, & '75-76 only because Walton (#1 '74), David Thompson (#1 '75), and Scott May (#2 '76) played one or more of those seasons.

Rant, rant, rant.

So, what do we have?  Championships and/or Final Four appearances obviously count a great deal as does scoring.  But if you want to compare talent, Laettner is too high &, but for championships & that one shot in a game he should've been thrown out of (& consequently wouldn't have won the championship) is either out or absolutely last.  Duncan and Robinson: out.  Almost impossible to complain about Mikan & Kurland: goaltending enacted, lane widened, Kurland 2 NCAA championships in a row, 2 gold medals, Mikan Player of the Year & NIT champion (same year Kurland was winning NCAA championship - remember NIT was a bigger deal for a while back then.  All the other big guys have to stay - Sampson, Ewing, Big E, Wilt & obviously soon to come Russell, Walton, & Kareem.  The scoring of Calvin Murphy might keep him in, but it's no better than Rick Barry, so they're tied for 25th, 24-Carr, 23-Kurland, 22-Mikan.  The floor players is a who's-who: Baylor, Gola, Magic, Jordan, Lucas, Bird, Thompson, Bradley, West, Oscar, & Maravich.  Who can you take out of that group? Nobody.  But (college only), Jordan won his championship as a freshman with a lot of help, so I need to move him back.  And I'd prefer to give more credit to guys who stayed their full 3 or 4 yrs, depending on their era, so I'd move Magic back even though he left 'cause he was so damn good.  But I'm quibbling.  I'd get May in at 21, Manning at 20, Unseld 19, Sampson 18, Gola 17, Baylor 16, Jordan 15, Elvin 14, Ewing 13, Magic 12, Bird 11, Lucas 10, Bradley 9, West 8, Maravich 7, David Thompson 6, Wilt 5, Russell & Walton tied for 3, Oscar 2, Kareem 1.

That was fun.  
Normally, I wouldn't approve a post like this, but Dean kicked ass with this one. I wouldn't have Kurland in there, and my top 15 would differ, but this one's worth your time. Nice job, Dean.
I wasn't going to entertain such a long post, but I did and found it very good. I only have a couple of disagreements, but overall a great job by Dean.
I like this list, however no one wants to mention Hakeem Olajuwan. How about Patrick Ewing? Grant Hill? And lets take it to the common era, I will go as far as saying Marcus Camby simply because without him UMass Doesn't make the NCAA Tournament, Show some love for the big man.
Thanks for those couple of nice compliments.  Pistol Pete officially #5 tonight, btw.

Talked with my father about this last night (unfortunately at Maryland's absolute collapse at home against Clemson) & he saw just about every one of these guys play.  The very first thing he said was that any list that has Laettner on it but not Rick Barry is a joke.  Said Barry was better than Gola too & Baylor too low, essentially as good as Oscar.  Dantley's & Isiah's absence mystified him too.

The other main comment he made was that it's nearly impossible to compare big guys like Mikan & Kurland to Russell, Wilt, etc. 'cause the lane was so narrow & goaltending was legal.  A bit of a conundrum since it was *those guys* that caused those rules to be changed.  (Not to mention that you have the no black players anywhere issue right up until Russell & Wilt forced everyone to pay attention.)  So maybe there should be a cut off at about 1950 or so & list those other guys on there as honorable mentions because they were great in their era & changed the game.  It would also free up a couple of spots...........

Last comment: interesting that the broadcasters on tonight's Kansas-Texas Tech game slammed the "blue ribbon panel" of selectors for leaving Danny Manning out.  Obvious opportunity since it's a Kansas game, but there seems to be a consensus of criticism that he's got to make the list.

I'm done unless someone wants to split hairs about the top 5 guys.
no one has mentioned Bernard King, 3 time All-American at Tennessee. 25.3 PPG and 13.2 RPG.

The man was a force. I know Tennessee is not UCLA, UNC, Duke, Kentucky, Kansas or Indiana...but there haven't been 25 college basketball players better than Bernard King....EVER!!!!
To leave Sydney Wicks off is a huge omission. UCLA beat Jacksonville when they had Artis Gimore; Marwues Johnson (1975 POY) merits mention as well. Sir Sydney was unstoppable that day against the 7 footer. And, don't forget, that Kareem and the Bruins avenged the Houston loss with a twenty+ point pounding in the tournament later that year.
It's a toss-up between Maravich and Alcinder.  Maravitch was the better offensive player in college while Alcinder was the better defensive player who played with a lot of good players.   Maravitch carried the load at LSU.  I would not have a problem with either at number 1.
this list is ok ...but come on pistol pete at 5...hes easily two or three...if he had a good team he would of won championships...this man played only 83 games and shattred the scoring record WITH OUT THREEEEEEEEEEE POINTERS...


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